Hey all. My kids and five years old and will be coming home tomorrow after their first visitation with their father. I have a couple of questions for you all.

First, I think one of my sons said to me on the phone that he was going to sleep "in Abba's bed" that night. ("Abba" means "Daddy" in Hebrew, and this is what they've called him all their lives.) It's hard to be sure of what he said, because, well, you just have to know Nuri. That, and the phone connection isn't perfect. I wouldn't be surprised, however, to learn that my ex is having the kids take turns sleeping with him at night. Now, don't get in a huff, because I'm not suspecting child abuse of any sort. However, I'm not sure I would consider this a healthy practice. They are five years old, not babies, and they do not have trouble sleeping -- no regular nightmares or afraid of thunder, etc. They should be sleeping in their own bed every night, in my opinion. They do here at home, and I do not allow them to sleep with me. Besides, I think it's highly inappropriate for them to sleep with my ex and his new wife in their bed. The court order for visitation only states that he should have adequate sleeping arrangements for the children while they are visiting. What do you think I should do? Should I talk with my ex and let him know that I feel it's inappropriate? Should I reiterate the court order and insist they sleep in the beds the court stipulates as adequate sleeping arrangements? I'm trying to be civil and on as good terms as possible so that this situation is as easy for the kids as possible, but I'm thinking maybe this issue is important enough for a confrontation (because it could very well turn into just that, knowing my ex).

Second question. From what one of my other sons said over the phone, it sounds as if my ex is having the kids call his new wife "Ima" (pronounced "eema"), which in Hebrew means "mommy." Now, I think he's telling them it's her nickname, but he's not telling them what it means. So they are accepting that and calling her "Ima." Of course, this rubs me the wrong way, but I'm trying not to get defensive about it. But do you think it's appropriate for him to ask them to call her this, while not telling them what it means and why he wants them to call her this? Up until this visit, they have always called her by her first name, and that is also what my ex put on their Christmas/Chanukah presents last year. Should I say something to him? Should I tell the kids what it means? Should I get involved with this at all? Even if I don't tell them, they will eventually learn what it means. How will they feel then?

Anyway, I really could use your advice. Maybe some of you have some wisdom to send my way tonight. I don't want to involve myself in his relationship with them, so I try to stay out of most everything, but these two points, and especially the first, have me teetering on the edge of involvement.

Can you help me?
Julie

Hi Julie,
I've never been in this situation and hopefully never will since my son very seldom sees his father,but I'll give you my opinion.The sleeping with daddy part is a tricky one.Being that they are only five years old and aren't around him every night,like you said it was visitation,maybe they were just wanting to stay close to him.At 5,mine still slept some with me,we would stay up late and watch TV and eat cookies and milk.I guess I would ask them why they aren't sleeping in their own beds and remind them that they are big boys now.An occasional night out of their own bed wouldn't concern me much.
As to your other concern-----NO------I would not let my son call anyone but me mommy.I would ask them if they know what "Ima" means,if not,I would tell them what it means and that I was the on;y mom they had and they were to call the lady by her name,not mommy.Then I would talk to my ex and tell him that they were not to call her mommy and that he is disrepecting me andmy relationship with my sons by having them call her mommy.If you weren't around and she was raising them I could understand them calling her mommy,in your case,if it was me,I would be highly upset.
I hope I've helped in some way,my thoughts are with you,good luck.

Sleeping with daddy after not seeing him so often wouldnt bother me much, BUT sleeping with daddy and his wife is really not appropriate. It sounds like you are trying to keep things civil, and I hope your ex is doing the same, I think it fair to ask your ex what the sleeping deal is. Let him know what you thought it sounded like your son said, and if its true, then I would tell him that you dont think its appropriate. Asking first, before bringing up the court order might show the ex that at least your giving him the benefit of the doubt.
I dont think him having the kids call his wife "Ima" is a good idea either. Your the mom. I would be upset by this too.

I totally overloked the fact that the new wife was included in the sleeping arrangements.Definately not with all of them together,I agree with the sane one,ask him first, to get the story straight,then you tell him how things are going to be from now on.If they're uncomfortable in their own bed or just want daddy to lie down with them is one thing,the new wife shouldn't be there,kids are confused enough,no need adding to it.

As far as the "Ima" part, discuss your feelings with him. Hopefully he will respect your position. Ask him how he would feel if it was reversed. If that doesn't work and he still insists on the kids calling her "Ima" than the only other option is to make it easier on your kids. Explain to them that she is their step mother, a second mother, so to speak, but that you are the real and only biological mother and that whatever happens in life, that will not change. That's just my suggestion, since the kids are so young. I know I would not want my kids calling anyone else "mom" but even my teenagers have second and third "mom"s in some of their friends mothers. My ex is not around very often and my youngest has adopted 2 of her friends dads as her second and third "dad", but I do ask her to never call them that in front of her real dad out of respect for his feelings. I don't know if this explains where I'm coming from. Maybe I'm just trying to provide some comfort in the situation, should it not turn out ideally.

Good luck!

Well, I brought up the subject of the kids calling his new wife "Ima" over the phone yesterday, and it turned into one big argument. I didn't even try to talk about the sleeping arrangements, but maybe will later on. I might discuss it with the kids' physician first. I don't know. I'm trying not to bring the lawyers into this, as it costs too much money, and it's only going to make matters worse, I think. But I may end up reminding him of the court order. If that doesn't get him to abide by the rules, I may then bring it to my lawyer's attention. I just don't know what to do.

Anyway, he was very annoyed that I was very against his use of "Ima" as the kids' name for his new wife. He kept saying "it's just a word" and "I think they should call her what she is." And I said to that one, "what, you want them to call her 'stepmom'? 'Cause that's what she IS! She isn't their mom!" He said, "I know that, that's why I didn't have them call her 'mom'." I explained to him that I felt it was very deceitful to the kids to have them call her "Ima" while not revealing to them what "Ima" means. He said that he didn't want them to know what it meant. I told him I felt that was wrong and that the kids were going to find out what it meant, whether by me, or him, or by someone else. (We go to a synagogue, and it is common among Orthodox Jewish families for the children to call their mother "Ima." They will hear it and eventually ask why.) How will they feel when they eventually learn they've been calling his wife "Ima" all this time?

They've been calling her by her first name for the last six months (as long as they've known of her). One of his arguments was that he was uncomfortable having a child call an adult by their first name. (They are in the South, and long-time Southerners feel it's disrespectful for children to refer to adults by their first name.) I told him then he could have them call her "Miss *****" if he was so bothered by it (which he never really seemed to be before). But I told him since she was a member of the family, it should be completely appropriate for them to call her by her first name. He interrupted and said, yes, she's a member of the family, so they should call her "Ima." (Any Southerners here have any suggestions or experience here?) I think he's trying to shove her down these kids' throats in order to get them to accept his new family as their own. He just doesn't see that they will need lots of time and more visits before they will consider her part of their family. They barely know her. How can they love someone they don't really know yet?

On top of that, I told him that I felt it was very disrespectful of their relationship with me, and to me personally, to have them call her this. He said, "but we're not having them call her 'mom'!" I said, "Yes, you are -- it's the same as calling her 'mom' or 'mommy'! They are all the same word, just in different forms and languages, but still the same meaning." I also told him it was disrespectful of me because when they were babies, we had tried to get them to call me "Ima," but it never took. They just called me "Mommy". This was fine with me, but for him to have them call her the name that was originally meant for me was very hurtful. It could be that this was his intention.

He seemed very adamant to continue this, though. He has no care or respect for anyone's feelings other than his own. I'm nearly 100% sure he's going to continue to try and get them to call her "Ima." So, I think I may just tell the kids what it means before they go down there to visit again. I don't think he wants me to do this, but tough! I'm not doing it to spite him, I'm doing it so that I'm not participating in perpetuating the deception. I want no part of that. If he wants to do things like that (and this isn't the first time he has, just not something this important), they can backfire on him later, but I don't want to be involved in hurting my kids. They should know what it means, and know what they are calling her, and then THEY can decide whether or not they feel comfortable calling her "Ima." If it's their decision, then I will live with that. But they have the right to make that decision in full knowledge of what it means.

Anyway, I wanted to update everyone on what has happened since I first posted. I'm still looking for any advice or suggestions anyone here has to give. I'm so upset that he's being so inconsiderate of his children's feelings. I'm not surprised he's being inconsiderate of mine, but to use the kids this way is just wrong. But, what goes around, comes around, and eventually it'll bite him on the rear later on.

God, give me the strength to be a rock for these kids!

Julie

Oh, and I did ask him how he would feel if it were reversed. If I were to marry and ask the children to call him "Daddy" or "Tati" ("Tati" is Yiddish for "Daddy"). He said it wouldn't bother him because he is "Abba". But I don't believe that for a minute! I think he's only saying that because he's trying to get his way. I think it would really bother him if his kids were calling someone else "Daddy." He's being a JERK!

Julie

This has kind of come up, in a way, with my kids, or kid in this case. She asked me what she should call a woman I should marry, I told her that is up to her. Its not for the parent to say you must call this woman mommy, or daddy on the male side. It should be the child choice. To try to make your kid say this is very confusing for them.

Paul, I agree with you. The kids should know what "Ima" means, and then they decide what they feel comfortable with.
snrn, I was just going to ask the question whether they call you Ima or not. Are the both of you jewish? You're right, it is the same meaning, just a different language. You said there are two names for daddy, "abba" and "tati". Are there two names for mommy?
You asked for more suggestions. The only thing I could say is to ask yourself how much is really bothers you. There are things that bother me about my ex and how he deals with things, but at some point I had to say to myself, "Is it worth the aggrivation." Then again, he doesnt have my daughter call his g/f anything other than her name. (although, he has said to me that I am not her mother, and I'm sure he'd like for g/f to be the "mommy.")I agree with you, it is about being respectful to your wishes, and it IS immature of him to use your kids like that. He sounds like my ex. always wants to get his own way. Well, keep us updated about the sleeping arrangement. The counselor I see says it is important for kids to have thier own sleeping space. Good luck.

quote:

Originally posted by Paulandhisgirls:
[qb] This has kind of come up, in a way, with my kids, or kid in this case. She asked me what she should call a woman I should marry, I told her that is up to her. Its not for the parent to say you must call this woman mommy, or daddy on the male side. It should be the child choice. To try to make your kid say this is very confusing for them. [/qb]

Paul, I wish he could hear your words. I would send him the link, but I doubt it would do any good. It would probably only make things worse. I told him that I thought it would become too confusing for the kids for them to call her "Ima" once they understand what it means. They are not old enough to understand what their relationship to her is. (They are only 5 years old.)

This hurts, but I may have to live with it. I think I'm going to have to live with how he's handling the sleeping arrangements, too. I could raise a stink, but raising too many stinks might make things harder for the kids.

He's a real jerk.

Julie

quote:

Originally posted by the sane one:
[qb] snrn, I was just going to ask the question whether they call you Ima or not.

No, it never took. They just called me "Mommy" or "Mom," and that was fine with me. At first I had wished they would call me "Ima," but then I enjoyed being called "Mom" or "Mommy." They have always called him "Abba," though.

Are the both of you jewish?

No, we're Noachides. Noachides are non-Jews who believe in the same faith as the Jews (Maimonides 13 Principles of faith) and follow the Seven Noachide Laws given to gentiles. The differences are that we are not part of the Jewish nation and we are not obligated to the 613 commandments of the Jews. You can find out more about what it means to be a Noachide by visiting http://www.asknoah.org/ or asking an Orthodox rabbi. Or you can ask me anything you like and I can do my best to answer.

You're right, it is the same meaning, just a different language. You said there are two names for daddy, "abba" and "tati". Are there two names for mommy?

Yes. "Ima" is "Mommy" in Hebrew, while I think "Mommele" is "Mommy" in Yiddish. I don't know much Yiddish, so I could be wrong there.

You asked for more suggestions. The only thing I could say is to ask yourself how much is really bothers you. There are things that bother me about my ex and how he deals with things, but at some point I had to say to myself, "Is it worth the aggrivation." Then again, he doesnt have my daughter call his g/f anything other than her name. (although, he has said to me that I am not her mother, and I'm sure he'd like for g/f to be the "mommy.")I agree with you, it is about being respectful to your wishes, and it IS immature of him to use your kids like that. He sounds like my ex. always wants to get his own way. Well, keep us updated about the sleeping arrangement. The counselor I see says it is important for kids to have thier own sleeping space. Good luck. [/qb]

If the kids, after they learn what it means, decide to continue calling her "Ima," I will live with it. I think they will likely eventually stop calling her that as they get older. I know they love me and know that I am their real mom, so I don't fear being replaced in the kids' eyes. I am just upset that they would try to deceive the kids by getting them to call her this without explaining what it means and why they wish to call her this. Although they are young, they are old enough to discuss things with you and have some understanding. They should be told up front what it means, and then given the CHOICE to call her that or her first name or some other solution. My mother feels he should have discussed it with me first before going ahead with it. And I agree with her. It was deceitful, disrespectful and hurtful.

As for the sleeping arrangements, I think I may just not say anything to him. If the kids talk about sleeping with Abba again, I may just ask them why they feel they need to do this. I can tell them that I think they are big kids now and should sleep in their own beds like they do at home. Having the boys take turns while my daughter sleeps with him every night is bound to cause some resentment among the boys eventually. I'll let my ex dig his own hole there. I just hate that the kids will be hurt in the process, but what can I do? Unless the kids are abused in some way, there's really nothing I can do. My ex won't listen to me -- he never did while we were together, so why should he now? He's going to do what feels good to him, regardless of how it makes others feel, including his own kids. I wonder how long his new wife will put up with it. Will she want these kids sleeping in bed with her and my ex in five years? Ten years? It will have to end sometime, I would imagine. Let them deal with that problem! My daughter used to sneak into my bed in the middle of the night and I wouldn't know she was there until I woke up the next morning. I finally had to put things on my bed that would make noise when she tried to move them out of the way in order to get in. It worked, although it took me a couple of weeks straight of middle-of-the-night tantrums to get her to stop and to stay in her bed all night. She does now, without trouble. She did try to get in my bed the night after they came home, but I stopped her and told her that she sleeps in her own bed here. She hasn't done it since, so I think she'll eventually be able to get used to different rules at different houses. But if they permit this for a few years, then try to break it when these kids are older, it's going to be a real tough time for my ex and his wife. Their problem.

Julie

I agree, you have to pick your battles. I would not care for either situation (my son calling another woman Mom in any language, or sleeping with his dad if there was another woman in the bed).

When my ex and I got married (many moons ago) he already had a daughter from a previous marriage. I had never been married before, and didn't have any children.

He often insisted that Bianca (my step-daughter) call me Mom. I told him I did not agree with it, and I did not want him to force her into anything like that. I think it made her resent me in the beginning, and it confused her.

And, in regards to the south ... I lived there as a child, and I do remember that we were never allowed to refer to an adult by their first name. It was Miss (first name) ... but ... in this case, I do not think it applies.

Maybe you could have your kids come up with a special name for this new wife, that is both respectful and appropriate? My step-daughter eventually called me mama J ... sort of in fun, but more often just called me by my first name.

Good luck to you in working out these things.

My bf his kids all call me Gail unless they want something then it is the MOM GAME Tom wants these igwanasa and Mark said No tom so Tom said but mom could you work on him for me.Although I do call him and Steele the Cabana Boys so turn about is fair play.The kids we have though are all older so I just let them decide what they are comfortable with.I have known Marks kids longer than I have known Marks so Gail is the usual I dont mind.hugs Gail

quote:

Originally posted by snrn:
[qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by the sane one:

No, we're Noachides. Noachides are non-Jews who believe in the same faith as the Jews (Maimonides 13 Principles of faith) and follow the Seven Noachide Laws given to gentiles. The differences are that we are not part of the Jewish nation and we are not obligated to the 613 commandments of the Jews.
My mother feels he should have discussed it with me first before going ahead with it. And I agree with her. It was deceitful, disrespectful and hurtful.

My ex won't listen to me -- he never did while we were together, so why should he now? He's going to do what feels good to him, regardless of how it makes others feel, including his own kids. I wonder how long his new wife will put up with it.
Julie [/qb]

Oh, I get it. There are lots of Maimonides shcools around here. I didnt realize there was a difference. That is very interesting.
I think your mom is right, too.
I can relate to you when you say that about your ex. My ex poo pooed anything thoughts I ever had/have on raising our daughter.
I hope all goes well with what you've decided.

quote:

Originally posted by the sane one:
[qb]

quote:

Originally posted by the sane one:

Oh, I get it. There are lots of Maimonides shcools around here. [/qb]

What is a "Maimonides school?" Never heard of it. Is this in the U.S.?

Noachides usually learn under the assistance and supervision of an Orthodox rabbi. There are a few large Noachide communities, but most of us are very spread out and are learning individually. I personally do not know of any other practicing Noachides anywhere close to where I live, and it sometimes gets very religiously lonely. There are no schools for Noachides, unless a large community of Noachides forms one (and I'm not sure this has even been done).

In truth, everyone on Earth who is not a Jew by birth or Orthodox conversion is a Noachide. But most Noachides do not know the obligations for gentiles or that gentiles even have a "place" in Jewish belief or thought or community. Most non-Jews think Judaism is only for Jews, and this is absolutely not true. It is quite the opposite.

Julie