a few things pushed me towards creating this discussion/asking this question. i received an automated letter from the court today asking if i wanted to change the child support. my ex wife pays about 38/mo for the last 15 years. that process has been a struggle from the beginning, she just does not want to pay. i do not need the money but think she should be financially responsible. she looks like a jerk for not paying and having her drivers license suspended or the courts dragging her in when she does not pay. the biggest problem is that it looks bad in the eyes of her 15 year old son. especially since she has always been able to afford it, just does not spend her money wisely (chain smoker, compulsive spender, etc)

she has visitation (officially) most of the summer, every other christmas and spring break. she was married after our divorce and since divorced that man and married another (and a few odd relationships mixed in there) not to sterotype, but that is how she gets out of relationships (cheating). it seems i am painting her in a bad light - i am just trying to get the facts out there for my upcoming question - believe me, i am no prince - i am sure i would not need one psychiatrist, but a team of them working around the clock for my neurotic tendencies *grin*

she left our son and i for another man when he was 9 months old, cambe back shortly after and filed for custody and lost

she was an ok mom (i think) for a while, she would emotionally neglect (not abusive other than a lot of yelling) and over a period of time things were going ok between our son and his mom. i later found out that our son was going through some emotional problems that i think had a lot to do with his relationship with his mom - which would show up in a serious physical forms and academic problems. he would hide his feeling from me, partly because his mom would tell him stuff and tell him not to tell me. i was frustrated at the time and i am sure i did not help much with my yelling and punishments (for school stuff). i took him to a psychologist for the physical/academic problems - it was an eye opener and things went ok but it was not completely affective.

around 12 years old, my son started finding himself. he became angry with his mom, but struggled to have a relationship with her. on average, she calls about 6 times a year and talks about herself mostly, which irritates our son. the worst part is, when he visits her she ignores him. she plays online games for a dozen hours at a time and she rarely spends time with him or her other two children. she has moments of unjustified anger with the kids. he came home early over summer vacation after a huge argument with his mom. he now pretty much refuses to talk to her until she apologizes. he still wants a relationship with her. he will not visit her until she shows change in her life.

i gave up talking to her a year ago, it was tapering off anyway because she is very irrational and does not remember things she says. it happened when my father was dying and our son at the last minute decided not visit her because he wanted to be with his grandfather (who helped raise him) when he died. she raised such a fuss i almost bought security cameras in case she showed up in the middle of the night and i would need evidence for court - she told our son that he did not love her and had no respect for her. she told me i would never see her again (hinting towards suicide maybe?) - it was bad, really really bad. she later apologized for this in her "its not really my fault, but i will say im sorry if it will end the discussion" method.

its nuts, really nuts - i bet by now most of you have stopped reading because of the content or length of this post *grin*. for those of you brave enough to make it this far- here is my dilema

what do i do? there is a big part of me that thinks NOT having a relationship with his mom is better than having that mess. i am in a position to influence - i always tell my son that the high road is hard, and it sometimes is painful - but you have to keep travelling on it. i have left this up to him only telling him things like "maybe later in her life she will change and it is important to keep ties to the relationship", "have an honest relationship with her, don't walk on eggs shells because you will be doing that the rest of your life", "if it hurts you that much then don't visit/talk to her".

in short, i am of no help to my son =( and may be confusing him more. i think i can consult/console him but am at the end of my rope. on one hand... things would be sooo much easier without her in his life. on the other what kind of father would i be if i wanted her out and could/would she change? she is immature and has told him that she lives her life the way she wants and he has no right to judge her.

what a mess, i brought him into this world, this mess. he is paying for my mistakes

i would really appreciate some suggestions - don't hold back. i am asking for advice, not hugs

Actually it sounds like you ARE helping him, even though it may not seem like it. Just helping him realize the reality of the situation and letting him choose how he wants to go forward with his relationship with his mom (since he is 15) I think is about all you can do there. And I also think that it keeps you from making it any harder on him emotionally, as opposed to trying to force him to have that relationship or to encourage him not to have that relationship. Keeping the middle ground is key, and he's old enough to form his own opinions and make decisions about that based on his own experience over all these years with her. That is so much like what I go through with my daughter and her mother. And believe me we are really having issues with it, my daughters depression/suicidal thoughts has us going to counseling twice a week and she is on anti depressants (for 2 months now and another 4 months to continue) She'll be 14 in January and I am done trying to help that relationship along, done trying to encourage it, either to her or her mother. It's been ongoing long enough that I feel my daughter can make up her own mind whether she wants to spend time with her mom or not. I just stick to keeping her aware that there really is nothing she can do to make her mother change. There's no self destructive act that will get her mother to be who she'd like her to be. I just let her know that she can only make decisions based on what is, not what if's.
Just so you know he is not paying for your mistakes, he is suffering from her choices/mistakes. If these sort of kids didn't have us to be their "constant" in life they'd be a whole lot worse off. We do what we do as a parent trying to raise a healthy happy person, and also try to undo damage caused by another parent that just doesn't seem to give a darn, all while trying to stay fairly neutral in our expressed opinions about this other parent.

As for child support, that is up to you. Here's where I tend to contradict myself. I would normally suggest to go ahead and get whatever child support you are entitled to. Yet, I don't have any child support order in place for her mother, I wouldn't ever recieve a dime anyway. Heck, even if I did ask for anything it wouldn't be much of anything considering she doesn't hold down regular employment and I think it keeps me from going through the hassle of possible custody hearings. I'm pretty sure she'd be asking for custody if she thought it was going to cost her money for support. And while I'm not worried in the least about actually losing custody I already have my hands full enough that I really don't care to spend any time in the legal system. That's just my personal decision.

Keep up the wonderful job of being a good parent sir.

just an update..

we just came back from christmas shopping (ugh) and my son opened up about being stressed out because of the mess. he is not visiting her this winter break which is what he wanted, but is battling why he cannot have a normal relationship with his mom.

on a positive note, he told his mom that he loved her and always would love her just does not like her... which i think is a mature response to the situation

Well amazingly enough I am in the exact same situation as you. My son is tweleve and his mom has done almost the exact same thing, with the exception that she only calls him on average of twice a year and she never tries to see him, bnby her choice only not mine or his. The only thing I can say is be there for him ( which you already are). When he is older he will know who helped him become who he is and it won't be her. PLus all of this will make him a better father for his children. I know it sounds bad but with all the things are children go through now it will make them better parents for their children. Maybe some day after all this horrible stuff is done the American Family will come back.
Till then be strobg be ther for your children and if you need help or a place to vent we are all here for you.

Despite your self-doubts I would like to reassure you that you are obviously doing a good job with your son. How else would he have found the character to so maturely and honestly tell his mom how he feels? He must have got a lot of it from you.

Once again I see Don (above) has pretty much hit the nail on the head in his assessment and advice (good going Don). The only thing I might add is that you might want to consider having your boy talk to a counselor about his feelings about his mom, since he is on the verge of puberty. Our relationships with the opposite sex are often influenced (either positively or negatively) by our feelings for the parental unit of our opposite sex. Just a thought.

The rewards for being the responsible parent aren't immediate. They come later when you realize that all the compromises, sacrifices and hard, dreary work you put in has helped form the substance and character of a decent human being. But sometimes you get an unexpected prize. Like last night... my 5 year old boy climbed in my lap, put his arms around my neck and whispered: "I love you, daddy." There is no other job on the face of this earth that is more spiritually rewarding that being a responsible and loving parent.

Keep up your good work and know that things will work out.

I myself did not want any child support from my ex, because I knew she would strungle with her bipolar and now they have said she has boarderline personality disorder. I volunteered in our divorce settlement to give her 200/month for a year to help her by her meds. I also (and did not have) to paid 800 to help get her an apartment and paid 300 to help get her an iud(which really hurt me bad, I think that was a mistake). She don't need to get pregnant in her condition. She says she couldn't deal with having another child. Update on her live in. He is in Kentucky getting cdl to drive a truck. He is going to be gone for a while. She don't like that. When he actually starts working he will be gone 5 days a week out state.
I think he will eventually leave. I know he will be making good money, and she said she was going back to part time. So 1 she would not be able to afford it and 2 I don't want his money. The thing is about this iud( I know I am off the subject just have not vented in awhile) She had been having problems and he told her to have it taken out and they would just use the rythem method.She told him know, and he eventually wants kids, but she don't so I think he will dump her. Why she tells me this stuff I don't know.

sam

And a good thought that is joe, about counseling. That's actually something, in hindsight, that I wish I'd have started sooner for my daughter. Sometimes it just sinks in more to hear it from an outside person/counselor as well as possibly different approaches in how it's presented to the kids. I've been impressed with the counselors we've been seeing. I find myself thinking "oh yeah, that's a much simpler way to explain what I've been trying to say" and "ah, I hadn't really thought about that aspect"
Plus, with group counseling such as we go to, they get to hear these things and compare to their peers and even better realize that they are not alone. Unfortunately there are a lot of kids that feel "abandoned" and let down by some of their parents and perhaps society in general.
A good place to start checking is your medical plan/hospital. The group counseling we are doing is free of charge and has been a great help.

he really does not want to go back to counseling, however has not said no. the best results i see is when he talks to women in my life who treat him kind and with respect (no kidding).

my mother and sister used to be wonderful influences but passed a few years back. then my sisters friend started talking with him from time to time along with one of my mothers friends (kind of neat the way that happened)

the worst scenario would be for him to be soured on women - i don't think that will happen, but there are times when you can tell he is stereotyping women to be like his mom. i try to snuff it out as quick as possible.

he is a good, smart kid with a lot on his mind =) it has been a rough few days, he has dwelled on this a lot. things have calmed down now, i think i will bring up see a therapist after christmas.

thanks for the advice everyone

I think you are doing the right thing. You're not trying to force him to have a relationship with her. And, on the other hand you are not bashing her and telling him not to have this relationship.

I have to tell you about a friend of mine. He is now about 30 years old. He grew up with his dad because his mom was a total flake. His dad wasnt all there either, but did raise him as best he could. The most important thing, however, is the man he is now. He's one of the best people I know. He's a firefighter. An outstanding parent (more maternal than his wife). He has tons of friends, a beautiful home and is always enjoying his life.

My point is, dont beat yourself up and think that you've ruined his life. You being a positive influence and being honest with him will help him grow into a good man.
God Bless.