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Old 06-10-2014, 10:11 AM   #1
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Default Disengage WS-Disengage

Ex is being wonderfully harassing again this morning. Yay

He brought them home 2hrs late last Sunday. N had messaged me via social media, which is not a proper form of immediate communication-I wasn't online-1/2 hr before they were to be home. Not Dad-N.
This teaches them, IMO, "I know what the rules and expectations are. You are to be home by 6. But EH. Were just going to overlook that little part of the court order and completely disregard any type of communication between adults. You'll get home when I am ready to get you home because I was partying all weekend and just got home, so I want to spend a bit of time with you".

Last Tuesday, he was a no call, no show. Forgot. Whatever.

Couple weeks ago, he showed up 2 hrs early for pick up. No call. No inquiry. No "hey I am in town. Is it okay to get them early?" No problem.

So K has ASD today-go figure. He can't leave school for the year without 1 more bang.
So I messaged ex to see if he could pick him up at school.
It begins.

Difference is, I ask, I don't just assume. I can't just assume. That wouldn't be very responsible.

Anyway, so I notice last night that the court order does not allow him over night's on Tuesday like it previously did. (well, it was Wednesday's then).
I have no issue's with them staying over on Tuesday night's, but his bullying, bashing, non-communicative attitude doesn't make me feel so inclined to do so. Why should I?

This is where it really sucks sometimes. Really really really sucks.
I know I can't change him. Kids would love to stay. But if I allow the bullying/bashing behavior, what's that saying?

More venting than anything. Will he ever figure it out? You get more bee's with honey. Sheeeesh.
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Old 06-10-2014, 10:32 AM   #2
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Default Re: Disengage WS-Disengage

It bites when ex's just do not get it and do not care. I see it professionally, and while I don't deal with it day to day anymore (I did for awhile), when I do have my encounters with the ex, it is apparent he just does not get it.
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Old 06-10-2014, 10:57 AM   #3
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Default Re: Disengage WS-Disengage

I think CP's are much more inclined to bend a bit when there is a mutual respect not only for each other, but for the rules/court order.

But, damn, one simple question for verification this morning turned into him bashing me. Why should I allow anything extra? If this is the response I get from a question, I cannot imagine (I do hear some) of what is said to the kids during visits.

Maybe I should have just pulled an ex trick and assumed he was getting K instead of communicating? UGH

5 more years. Five more years.

---------- Post added at 09:57 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:40 AM ----------

"I'm about to take full custody anyway, and there's nothing you can do about it"
Whatever.

Is there a point where the courts may see this as bullying? Harassment? Since he just tried that? Geeeez.
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Old 06-10-2014, 11:15 AM   #4
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Default Re: Disengage WS-Disengage

If he just tried and lost, then files again, in my state you would get an award for attorney's fees. That's about all they can do here anyway. Harassment is criminal in nature. Domestic relations civil. And so judges do not look at behavior in terms of criminality (except for child abuse). But they can, and sometimes do, punish punatively with awards of attorney's fees.
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Old 06-10-2014, 02:29 PM   #5
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Default Re: Disengage WS-Disengage

i agree with lsl--my ex is extremely litigious and she thinks i'd get an award of attorneys' fees if he takes me back right now. but other than that...nothing you can do.

so...if i were in your shoes, i would likely follow the decree to the letter. period. end of story. no overnights, period. the less time the children are with crazy person, the BETTER for them, IMO. but that's just it--an opinion based on not really knowing all the factors--which you know best. i.e. they like spending time with the rest of the family--since he is off partying? or am i remembering it wrong?

in my case, the only way to 'control' the situation is limiting time based on the decree. seriously, my attorney advised that if i do not have to rely on that family for anything, do not. no bells, no whistles. i rarely compromise, and only do when it has to do with family event...

he is such a horse's a$$! i'm so sorry WS.
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Old 06-10-2014, 02:31 PM   #6
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Default Re: Disengage WS-Disengage

Honestly Wood, I almost treat my Exie and the situation like a child, i.e. trust is earned. If he betrays my trust/expectations, no extra favors granted. When he starts acting nicely and not pitching fits, I work with him again. Pretty simple.

He has developed a strategy lately of leaving long voicemails portraying the situation as he wishes. I.e. “This message is to say that due to your hostile and aggressive nature…” or “Due to your harassing behavior…” etc. I record all our phone calls and his voicemails so I just let that go.

But, ultimately, I make judgment calls. We are CP. We have final say. Can’t remember if you have joint legal- I don’t which makes my job a little easier, but still. Just make calls that are best for your kids with an eye to the fact that someday you may have to defend it.

If he is being irregular and inconsistent, then no way- I’d stop bending the rules for anything.
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Old 06-10-2014, 03:20 PM   #7
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Default Re: Disengage WS-Disengage

I haven't bent the rules yet. I haven't called LEO yet either (like Sunday), but I haven't bent the rules.

It just gets more difficult as the kids get older. They love his dumbass and want to spend time with him. I say no and I get to deal with terribly raunchy ___ teen attitude x2.
I have to work for the summer and that's even harder because then they take their anger out for me, on each other.

Eh, well, gotta do what I gotta do

Going to be a ty summer

---------- Post added at 02:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:07 PM ----------

Tuesdays, ex gets them anyway for 3.5 hour visitation. So if something comes up with K on Tuesdays, rather than me leave work 2 hrs early, I asked him to pick him up since he already would be 45 minutes later.

I still carry fear for my job from the last job. Being laid off for being a single parent scares you from doing anything that may interfere with your job

I see what your saying BW. Guess I need to
1. Try to nip K's behavior (many years of therapy didn't do it-running against the grain-but I'm trying)
2. When issues do arise on a Tuesday, just leave ex out of it.
3. Call LEO tonight if he refuses to return the kids
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Old 06-10-2014, 05:09 PM   #8
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Default Re: Disengage WS-Disengage

When he showed up early, that was for time not in your order correct? So, theoretically, you bent the rules by letting him get K early.

Not saying that's always the best call, but my default is always, if you push, we default to the order, exactly as written.
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Old 06-10-2014, 06:11 PM   #9
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Default Re: Disengage WS-Disengage

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Originally Posted by cf829 View Post
When he showed up early, that was for time not in your order correct? So, theoretically, you bent the rules by letting him get K early.

Not saying that's always the best call, but my default is always, if you push, we default to the order, exactly as written.
I made him wait that time for an hour. Let them leave an hour early thou.

But do you know how hard it is to sit and wait for 2 hrs with two teens looking out the window, dad sitting right in front of the house? And the other option, what, call the cops? Make him leave with the police here? Making a stressful situation even more stressful For everyone but him? Involving the kids in his ugly manipulation even more?

I'm not fussing at you (I know it sounds like it) I am just thinking aloud about my options. Really, they leave us few most times except for looking like the mean y one.

We'll see what tonight brings. If he refuses to bring them home, I have to call the Sherriff & the only thing their going to do is call him and tell him to return them unless I physically go out there then call LEO.
Been down this road long ago unfortunately with Sherriff involved.

---------- Post added at 05:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:00 PM ----------

I guess that may be the answer. 1 very ugly situation one of these times he doesn't follow the order and maybe his disregard for the order will be nipped? Maybe?

---------- Post added at 05:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:08 PM ----------

I can hear all the therapists now "Remember you're not the one putting the kids in these situations. He is by not following the order, being rude and disrespectful"

Yea. That makes it easier to do
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Old 06-10-2014, 06:13 PM   #10
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Default Re: Disengage WS-Disengage

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Not saying that's always the best call.
That's what I meant by this. It's up to your judgment. If he makes a habit of it, plan to not be at home, etc. The thing is they will continue to take ground for as long as you let them, you know?

And I know, it's hard balance to strike.
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Old 06-10-2014, 06:27 PM   #11
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It is. Very much so.
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Old 06-10-2014, 08:47 PM   #12
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Default Re: Disengage WS-Disengage

Their home. Phew. One Tuesday of how many down?
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Old 06-10-2014, 09:03 PM   #13
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Default Re: Disengage WS-Disengage

WS sorry things are that way....no advice, just lots of sympathy. Parenting is hard enough without adding childish parents to the mix!
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Old 06-10-2014, 09:07 PM   #14
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Default Re: Disengage WS-Disengage

Sorry WS

I think not being home will solve the problem of him coming early--if he does it again, i guess just plan on nont being there? I'm glad the kids are home and i'm so sorry this is is like this. ____. it's such a bunch of baloney.
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Old 06-11-2014, 12:01 AM   #15
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Default Re: Disengage WS-Disengage

Not being home is a great solution (to some pieces at least). there are no good answers…that's one thing I've learned over the years. There is no way to follow orders, not badmouth, respect and do what is best for the kids and NOT feel beaten up but the NCP, imho…. because if you start bringing up court ordered times, etc to me you are talking about things the kids shouldn't be involved in (now yours are older, but still our kids are all about the same ages) I let more out in the open now…e.g. when he talks to them about visits and doesn't involved me, I've told them to say "that's fine with us but you should speak to mom, don't know if we have anything planned" Here though the every other weekend thing died years and years and years ago. At this point it is when it is convenient for him and if the kids don't have commitments already. Sometimes they opt out regardless… but since he never did follow court orders and cannot follow them he can't really do anything about it….
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Old 06-12-2014, 07:22 AM   #16
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Default Re: Disengage WS-Disengage

That would be ideal, but that particular day he was here when I got home. Guess I could have piled them in the car & left until p/u time.

I really wish tgere was an easy answer to dealing with these types of ex's
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Old 06-12-2014, 09:59 AM   #17
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Default Re: Disengage WS-Disengage

There is. But it is not legal.
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Old 06-12-2014, 11:33 AM   #18
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Default Re: Disengage WS-Disengage

where the stargate when u need one, we'll send him to a nice and swampy place.
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Old 06-12-2014, 11:38 AM   #19
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Quote:
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There is. But it is not legal.
T use to say awful things. Course he said them about my animals too. As much as I don't like him, Id hate to see my kids in that kind of pain
They love his dumb ___

---------- Post added at 10:38 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:37 AM ----------

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where the stargate when u need one, we'll send him to a nice and swampy place.
Now ThAt is doable!
Send him to where Swamp Thing lives. Swamp Thing doesn't like bad people
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Old 06-12-2014, 05:47 PM   #20
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i know, i wish they would go live under a shoe. or a rock. or tibet.
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Old 06-14-2014, 10:01 AM   #21
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Default Re: Disengage WS-Disengage

Ugh. My Sat morn started out with K saying he couldn't wait until Tuesday. When I asked why he says
"Dad is taking us..somewhere to fix the Tuesday overnight thing in the order. So we may be able to stay the night".
I swear. What could he possibly be referring to?
I just don't understand. I hate all this childish behavior and it is so *}^}>}>#%}# tiring.

If it goes back to court should I stick with my attorney or go for the higher priced attorney?

I'm fine with the order the way it is, other than a few details not being mentioned in the order, thou I was surprised we both neglected to notice that Tuesday night over summer vacation had been excluded. As long as J is living with his mom, the safety concerns aren't as much of a concern. The emotional/verbal abuse and basing of me will continue no matter where he lives, I'm afraid.
But I'm sticking to the order unless otherwise ordered.

He's not supposed to be talking to them about the order, per the order. The only time I mention it is when dad tells them some lie like "You can stay all summer" and I reply the order says nothing of all summer long visits.

Is it wrong of me to refer to the order when correcting misinformation?
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Old 06-14-2014, 10:12 AM   #22
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Default Re: Disengage WS-Disengage

I think you are doing the right thing and a lot of NCP know that since we follow "rules" they will attempt to bend as many of those rules as they can find because it gets under our skins.
Is Dad taking them on a summer outing to a lawyer's office or to the court house? I have no other idea as to what else he could mean. Either way, keep the kids out of it....but then he needs allies and will use the kids if he can.
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Old 06-14-2014, 10:24 AM   #23
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Default Re: Disengage WS-Disengage

I have no idea what he's is planning/scheming/thinking. 95% of the time he's blowing smoke but that doesn't keep my guard from activating, or my stress level down.
If he took him to the lawyers office or court house, I don't know that our Judge wouldn't think too highly of that given the wording in our order regarding discussing visitation/custody with the kids.
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Old 06-14-2014, 10:35 AM   #24
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Default Re: Disengage WS-Disengage

I guess he figures the kids are not children, they are tools to be used to annoy you.
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Old 06-17-2014, 11:06 AM   #25
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Default Re: Disengage WS-Disengage

So, today is the day he is supposedly taking the kids "somewhere" to fix Tuesday nights.
With all the contempt issues, I emailed my attorney. While I can file a motion, for the money spent and time invested, she doesn't think it would be worth it. That a Judge would merely smack his hand and tell him "no no".

Her advice? If the kids enjoy going to dad's, try to be more flexible

While they do enjoy their time with dad, the confusion all of the talk causes, the anger all the bashing & lies cause...Is it not contributing to their behavior if I allow them to be around that type of behavior more?

I am so flipping confused. I have no clue anymore how to battle all this after 10yrs.

Lawyer says if I allow more time, be more flexible with Tuesday's, that a Judge will see that I am attempting to nurture a healthy relationship with dad.

How is it healthy if their one commonality is their anger towards me? If he constantly feeds that anger with false promises without communicating with me? If he is constantly telling them lies about me? Encouraging the anger and resentment by voicing his opposing opinion on all I am doing? I punish too long, I shouldn't take PS2 & PS3 away. How dare I!!

UGH.

And finally, how are we not supposed to worry when we are threatened? How do we get to a point, after 10 freaking years of insults, threats, bashing...of not letting it bother us?
Is that possible? Is it possible not to worry?

While it's a comfort to know that I can withhold the kids until the ordered pick up time, it is fairly difficult to do when I have a job I am committed to. It is not feasible to leave work early every Tue. just to ensure he doesn't show up early.


IDK anymore. I want my kids to be happy, but at what cost? I don't care what he thinks of me.
I do, however, care that this attitude of general dislike towards me comes home.
That the anger is directed at me for all he is doing wrong.

---------- Post added at 10:06 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:04 AM ----------

Combine all that ^^^^ with the general teenage attitude and you've got a recipe for a very tense environment.
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Old 06-17-2014, 11:14 AM   #26
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Default Re: Disengage WS-Disengage

The hardest thing for me to understand is how states handle things differently for these issues. After 10 years of this, we would be calling this parental alienation here. Those threats, insults, promises, and bashing is designed to get custody of those kids. Even if it is with the kids decision to leave. It is a hard thing to prove. But as consistently as your ex has said things, I am thinking there is proof that is more consistent.

I wouldn't bother with contempt though. He would get a slap on the wrist. Here, I would be gearing up for a modification.

That said, seems like your judge did not care. So either you need to consult with a more skilled attorney, or you are going to have to trust that while the kids feed into it now, all he is doing is killing his relationship with his children.

I am so sorry that this is a constant problem and that he seems to be emboldened to do what he does.
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Old 06-17-2014, 11:34 AM   #27
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Default Re: Disengage WS-Disengage

Thanks. That means a lot. Truly. I often wonder if it just my imagination since I have no real life support.

I have considered hiring the "bulldog" in town. Her retainer is $5000 thou. May just see what today holds, and go from there.

CPS put him on supervised visitation and "ordered" me to monitor their phone conversations years ago due to his bashing. Ironically, they understood the damage this can cause to a parents relationship with their kids.

I just feel like if I step out of the bounds of the order, I would get slapped.
If he breaks the bounds of the order, it's almost like it is expected of his kind, and a shrug of the shoulder's is given.
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Old 06-17-2014, 02:45 PM   #28
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Default Re: Disengage WS-Disengage

I know I hear you WS. It's so awful.

When Exie was threatening to withhold the children on the holiday the other week that was clearly stated in the order it's mom's--the parenting counselor said to 'offer a compromise.' Seriously? Compromising with a manipulator who emotionally pressures the girls? And roles reversed, how much I would have gotten if I tried to withhold HIS holiday? I nearly laughed in her face. Instead, I told her there were times/places to compromise but the holiday that was happening in 24 hours was not one of them. Whatever. BS.

Maybe it is time to consult with the bulldog. Isn't the initial consult (usually an hour) free? Or do they charge for that, too? It might be worth spending the hourly rate just to find out if she'd offer an initial idea on what she would do and what your chances are.

I worry about the same thing--he indoctrinates the children with feeling sorry for him and it gets translated into "why can't i see daddy more?" as if it's up to me--see the subtle externalizing blame? (I respond that mommy and daddy have to follow the rules, and that the judge sets the rules for the grown-ups.) Anyway, it hasn't translated into anger yet, but I sense DD1's obstinance/pissiness after she spends extended time with him. It's so sad and breaks my heart.

how do we know that they will 'see the light' one day? And understand he is what he is?

good luck and will be praying that today goes well.
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Old 06-17-2014, 02:48 PM   #29
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Default Re: Disengage WS-Disengage

Any way to change judges?
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Old 06-17-2014, 03:30 PM   #30
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Default Re: Disengage WS-Disengage

Quote:
Originally Posted by zomom View Post
Any way to change judges?
No. Not unless he retires, or chokes on a chicken wing. You get a Judge for life here, unfortunately.

We have to carry so much on our shoulder's, and compromise. It sickens me, really.
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Old 06-17-2014, 04:33 PM   #31
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Default Re: Disengage WS-Disengage

Yes, it sucks...and it's not like even if you give him what he wants (whatever it may be for that week) he would stop trash talking you either (rolling eyes).
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Old 06-17-2014, 07:40 PM   #32
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so true, zmom!
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Old 06-17-2014, 09:11 PM   #33
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Default Re: Disengage WS-Disengage

Wow. Geez. There are lower lows. Their home and as soon as N goes upstairs K says "I'm not supposed to tell you this but dad is taking us to social services next Tue. They can change the order"

Me "Ok. Ya know, the order says were not supposed to discuss custody or visitation with you kids. Neither your dad nor me"

K "Oh. Oops. I kinda read it. It wasn't dad's fault. It was mine"

UGH Are you freakin kidding me?? -in my head. Not out loud

K "It doesn't say anything about Tuesday overnights. At all"

UGH again!!! I think in his 13yr old mind, it is supposed to say what we "can't do". And this is why, at 13, he should not be reading a court order that specifically states custody and visitation are not to be discussed with the kids!!!!!

I don't even. How do I. WTF??

Filling his head with all this nonsense. DSS cannot interfere with custody or visitation here. Not in the least bit. After 8 or so investigations of my ex, I am all too aware of this.
Only in extreme, seriously extreme cases, can they interfere.

Now he is all excited thinking dad is going to "fix it"

Here's a thought; show the mother of your children the respect she deserves for that simple fact alone and all she does day in, day out, for the kids, and things may run a bit smoother.

Be more flexible with THAT? Reallllly.

---------- Post added at 08:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:59 PM ----------

I just realized when they run his name, they'll see al the prior investigations and findings. That's funny. Wish I could be a fly on that wall. If that's what he actually intends on doing that is
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Old 06-17-2014, 09:17 PM   #34
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Default Re: Disengage WS-Disengage

WS,

damn pain of things (exs, legal, bills), sucks, sucks, sucks, sucks,sucks....mmmmm, sorry. Was that to many sucks? So sorry really, I wish I had fresh advice, a way to hold your hand, yet, your holding your kids hands, that I can see.

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